Special guest, Keisha B. Spivey and Pam dive deep into a conversation about motherhood and teenagers. How to have conversations with your teens about the tough questions, cultural issues, and sex talks. Keisha is a mother of 3 and a former youth pastor. She has years of wisdom regarding teens and meeting them on their level. In this episode Keisha reminds us that we to point our kids (teenagers) to Christ. While we definitely won’t do everything perfectly, we will never fail when we lead them to Jesus.

You can follow Keisha online at https://kbspivey.com/, or Instagram and Facebook.

Transcription

Pam Bailey [Intro] [00:04]: Welcome to the soul sisters podcast with Pam Bailey, grab a cup of coffee sister and let’s sit and chat about all of the things that lead us to Christ centered life, full of purpose and joy. Hi, soul sisters. Welcome to today’s podcast, this is Pam and I am super excited as this is my first podcast with one of my own soul sisters, Keisha Spivey. Keisha I am so excited to have you with me today. I just want to welcome you and thank you. And I hope you have as much fun with me as I have planned out in my head. So let’s get this thing started and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Keisha Spivey [00:49]: Well, first of all, thank you so much for the opportunity. I don’t know when you and I get together, Pam and we don’t have fun. So, I am excited about us just having some soul sister chat time. Me, I’m a wife of 26 years. I am a mother of three biological children, and I get the joy of having a lot of folks call me mama. I’m a certified life coach, I’m an ordained pastor, I am a published author and I have a couple of other titles that I get the joy of wearing. But I think the best thing I’d like to say about me and my bio is that I am literally committed to develop and to disciple people. I get the joy of being an executive director for a local nonprofit. And that allows me the opportunity to work with people that are in a crisis that are in transition. People that are in need, people that are desperate, people that are broken. And a lot of times people that are hopeless. So that’s a little bit about me and excited for us to have this conversation time.

Pam Bailey [01:50]: Whew, let’s all take a deep breath every time I’m with you. I have to remember that you are like a superwoman.

Keisha Spivey [01:57]: Not, not, not, not.

Pam Bailey [02:00]: And I do have the joy of knowing your three kids. And while I get to say, you’re superwoman, you don’t have to affirm that, but you are an incredible mother. I have witnessed that myself. The reason that I wanted to have you on this podcast is because I know your children, and your children are now grown. And so I know that you have a lot to offer the conversation about motherhood plus teenagers. You and I met, when I was prepping for this podcast, I was trying to find the exact date and I don’t know, but it was such a God-ordained moment when you and I met. And it was just under a decade ago, it feels half of a lifetime, but it’s only been less than 10 years and you and I met because we were both female youth pastors in our community and God opened the door for you and I to work together in our community and really bring Christ unified into our schools and into our churches. And one thing that I loved about you is that you would regularly go into our high schools in our community and you would have this conversation with just random teenagers called real talk. Tell me a little bit about what real talk was for the local high schools?

Keisha Spivey [03:28]: Real Talk was an opportunity for me to sit with young people and they get to talk about any topic, they could ask any question. We could discuss those difficult conversations that a lot of times adults shy away from. And it was just a safe place, it was a place that any question could be asked and I was going to do my absolute best to answer it according to biblical truth, according to personal experience. And also I had a commitment to finding other folks who may have had more experience, or could offer some insight on the topics that they had. And it kind of got birthed out of me being a youth pastor and realizing that there were a lot of topics that kids were talking about that parents that refuse to have a conversation regardless. I will never forget we did a real talk at our youth ministry, and I would actually have the parents give permission because what I would do is let the kids ask any question under the sun anonymously.

And if it was something that was a true question, it was something that we really could deep dive into and I could give a biblical response to. I wanted to talk about it and I will never forget it. I had a parent who signed for their kid to sit in on these real talk sessions. And they got devastated because kids started asking some really sensitive stuff and I would take a deep breath and I would pray. And I would ask the Holy Spirit to lead me in how to respond in a way that glorified God and gave them some tangible life application. And the conversation topics and I’m just going to say, Pam, they wouldn’t do stuff like masturbation. They went to porn, they went to stuff like oral sex. They went to recreational drug use. They went to racial issues and stereotypes and biases.

It went to everything under the sun. And one mother came to me, very upset. Her child was in the eighth grade. And she could not believe that I spoke the word sex and responded to a conversation regarding sex. And she said, her child, now mind you they had cable TV, had never heard the word sex before. And she didn’t think she was ready to have that conversation. And I took a breath and I looked at the lady and I said, did you realize that in your daughter’s classroom, in the eighth grade, there’s a young lady, who is nine months pregnant, and she looked at me, that’s no concern of my daughter. And I said do you have cable TV? And she said, yes. I said, so let me be the first to tell you, your eighth grader has heard the word sex and probably could teach you a few things if you asked her and she was devastated.

So then I realized at that moment, these kids had all these questions, life and death, destiny defining situations and questions. And all they could do was ask their classmates and their friends because they couldn’t ask their parents. And I just felt as a youth pastor, as someone dedicated to help people get in touch with God and to build their relationship with God and to become all that God had ordained them to be, they need a soft place to land and they needed a place to get a God response. And it started there. And I ended up in all the high schools and it was funny because they could have a choice to go to the cafeteria to eat their lunch, or they could come to hang out with me. And the teachers were blown away because they chose to come to hang out with me.

And we just talked. And I, I responded to the best of my ability, how I would want a response from our own children. Because at that time I had two teenagers. What I would want an adult to say to my babies, what I would want my babies to understand about those really tough topics, those difficult dialogues that we can’t run from because there’s a world out there itching to filled our babies with their response. And I think that it’s a failure on our part. It’s a misstep on our part to let those conversations be answered by anybody else and anything else other than the word of God.

Pam Bailey [07:51]: Amen. Kesha. You mentioned the term a soft place to land. And I love that. I am a mother for those who are new and not familiar with me and Kesha. She has three kids. I have four and my oldest is only 11. And so we are just starting to tiptoe into the teenage experience, but I have served teenagers for many, I don’t even want to count. Many, many years, but it’s so different from being a youth pastor and being a mom. And I see the struggle that I have in my own life with wanting to protect my babies and wanting them to live in the bubble and not really be inundated with the incorrect information of the world, but yet struggling with how do I teach them the world and they have a soft place to land. And so friend, tell me what that looked like for you, because you knew all the things to do as a teenager, as a youth pastor, like you and I knew how to impact teams, but how do we do that in our own homes?

Keisha Spivey [09:05]: I will tell you that being a youth pastor and having privy to a whole lot of the drama and the bad things happening in the world, didn’t make it necessarily easy for my kids, because there was nothing for me to come home and call a family meeting because I need to make sure they know that this is wrong and this is happening. And the common question at the table would be okay, mom, who did you counsel today? And what is going on? Because they knew something that prompted that conversation. But for me, the blessing about children, your age, the ones you have Pam, is we get to keep them bubble wrap. We, they’re in a very protected and very safe place. And they’re only limited based on what we allow them. I think about my kids, we have controls on our television.

They couldn’t watch anything and my daughter still asks because we still have controls on my TV. My son is 24, my daughter’s 22. And my baby she’s 18, but we still have control over the TV and people who like why we have control over the TV because I don’t watch it. And it’s not good for me then why is it good for my babies? You still have to put a code on my TV right now, if you want to see something that I don’t consider. And my husband does consider it appropriate. We did things that a lot of people disagreed with and probably wouldn’t have, they thought we were extremists. I think even at that time, my children thought we were, when they got old enough to have cell phones, they still had to check their phones in at night at eight o’clock, because who could they need to be talking to that late at night?

And so, what we did is we put up boundaries and parameters around them. We put up fences, you know, fences are good. They keep people in and they also keep people out and we get the best we could to make sure there were fences in our children’s lives between us and people that we believed what operates in the best interest of our children. And we literally kept the fences up and we were able to teach them in every opportunity that we had the difference between good and evil, the power of free will the power of making the right choices. And it helped a lot that I had a whole lot of family that was living contrary to the word. I have a lot of families that were into things and a part of things that we didn’t tolerate. We didn’t participate.

And I was often able to use my family’s choices to teach them, why I chose differently and why we live this way, why we do this? I use that as opportunities, but what happens, Pam once they start getting to the 13 and it’s happening sooner now because the world is speeding up, there was a point where I couldn’t control all the fence posts. I would look and their teachers were now fence posts. Their friends were now fence posts, and I’m like, hold up. How did they get up? I didn’t put them up. I didn’t allow them in. But because my children, the older, they became, the more they allow other people and other things access. And so what I realized at that moment, initially, I was wrapped with fear because I’m an overcoming control freak. Don’t tell anybody, but I’m overcoming I’m in the process.

Thank God for the blood, but I wanted to control it. I wanted to put up electrical barb wire around the fence to make sure nothing penetrated. Well, there’s supposed to be, if I didn’t want you in, I didn’t think you were good. But what God said to me is that I will be enabling and crippling my children that I had to be able to teach my children how to discern what is of God. I couldn’t trick them into doing it. I couldn’t control them into doing it. And so every opportunity that we had around the dinner table or in the car or sitting around, I used everything I saw as teaching opportunities. And what do you think is going to happen when they do this? And when my children made mistakes or their friends made mistakes, instead of trying to beat them across the head with it, I turned everything into a life lesson because I wanted my children to be able to think through the decision-making process.

I wanted them to understand every opportunity I’ve presented with good and evil. There’s a choice between light and dark. And my mom and my dad. Aren’t going to always be here to tell me which way to go. I have to start learning how to hear God’s voice for myself. And also when they got to a place and they didn’t know, and they couldn’t hear to know that they could bring anything to us, that they could talk to us about anything. And what happened through that is that ended up spending a lot of time talking to my kids’ friends, because there would have a dilemma and they couldn’t talk to their own parents. And they would talk to my children and my children were smart enough to know they didn’t have the answer because I explained to them, how are you going to ask people advice that’s trying to figure it out with you?

I will teach them, how are you going to ask someone in the same situation with you with the same experience that you have and the same issues you’ve got to lead you, that stupidity. So throttle back and be willing to call in someone that you trust. And so when my children saw me deal with their friends and their peers and they would bring to me, and I’m just being honest, this is your podcast. So if I go too far correct me, but you know they would bring kids to me, teenagers who were battling homosexuality, they would bring kids to me that are started dabbling in drugs. They would bring kids to me who lost their virginity. And they would bring kids to me whose parents were having turmoil at the house. And what I realized is every time they brought me their friends, it was giving me an opportunity to teach them.

And what I also realized is whether they were making right decisions or wrong decisions, we were learning how to develop true trust because I needed my children to trust that their dad and I would always do our absolute best to lead them in the right way, we miss it absolutely. Will we make mistakes? Absolutely. Will we be extremists sometimes? Oh yeah, pretty sure. But they needed to know that our heart was for God and that we were their biggest cheerleaders and that we would support them and love them. And they needed to feel comfortable bringing those tough questions and those tough conversations to us. So we couldn’t always tell them what to do, but we could help them think through the process. And I believe that was one of the best gifts we gave our children because yeah, we made a lot of mistakes, but even now we have a son who’s married and we’re so excited about the decisions that he’s making and the things that he’s doing.

But even at 24, he still picks up the phone and calls his dad to help him think through a process. He still calls me at 24 to help him think through the process. And it’s not for us to tell them what to do, but for us to help him think it through and I think that was what we did well. Now there was sometimes we’d help him think through the process. And I closed the door and the cause I’m like, don’t do this. And I would have to work that out of my own mind because I wanted to set the trap, you know, get manipulative. If I do this and I can cut them off this way and that they have to make this decision and the Lord says this, and how will they ever grow? You have to let them grow.

And so, as you are talking to your children about these hard topics, and you’re talking to them about the harsh world that we live in, and as you’re having conversations with them about the enemy who has the purpose of killing stealing and destroying their destiny, then you have to be willing to get uncomfortable and crunch sometimes, you have to be willing to make your face, not express what you’re thinking and let your face and your mouth, your heart and your hands always be a refuge. I remember hearing TD Jakes say something that a pastor disagreed with when he was telling me about it. And he made this statement and it has been edged on my heart because I think TD Jakes, daughter got pregnant at 13 or 14. And she, it was a whole mess. He was pastoring the church and just, she got pregnant.

I think she delivered, I think at 14. And I was reading him, talk about that. And he said of all the roles he had, somebody else can be somebody’s Bishop. Somebody else could be somebody else’s pastor, but nobody else could ever be his children’s parents. And he said, he had to decide at that point, when his daughter was 13 and his sons had made some bad decisions, all of these kinds of things. Now his daughter, the one who had that baby is Sarah Jake’s. The one that everybody’s listening to, but people forget, she had a baby when she was a little girl, but he said, I had to teach my children that they could always come home, no matter what they did, no matter what was happening, no matter what the question, they could always come home. And he said, even if he came home in drag, he could always come home.

Even if he came home in addiction, he could always come home. He was talking about his son at this time. And the pastor that was talking to me saying, that’s not true. You have to set boundaries. And I sat on that thing and I said if your children don’t ever feel they could come home, where can they go? What is the thing? And where’s the place that you want to be the refuge that they run to. And if they’re not going to run to Jesus, you better hope they run to you so that she can put them in the arms of Jesus.

Pam Bailey [19:12]: Amen. That’s so, wow. Keisha, that’s beautiful. And at this moment I’m thinking about the prodigal son and that whole story. And interestingly, that story popped up in my mind in the last month and when you read that story. You know, the wayward son, he went and did all the things and partied. And then he found himself in a pig trough and said, I don’t want I’m paraphrasing. This is what I call the Pam interpretation of the Bible. But he said I don’t want this anymore. And he went home. And what I think we sometimes fail to miss in that story is that when he arrived home, he had literally come from a pig trough to his dad’s footstep, he’s stunk.

Keisha Spivey [20:02]: Stinky, dirty, messy, tore up from the floor up.

Pam Bailey [20:06]: Yes, he stunk. And you and I have the privilege of living in Eastern North Carolina. And so we can go 10 miles down the road and smell a good old hog farm. And that good old hog farm can stink for up to 30 miles. And this is just not one of those things that suddenly he shows up, gets out a little wipe and the stench is gone.

Keisha Spivey [20:34]: It was in his skin that stuff was buried in him.

Pam Bailey [20:38]: Yes, and that was a cleansing process. And so for the father to say, oh my goodness, you’re home here is the best meal I could give you and put my robe on in the midst of the stench that is not going to go away overnight. It’s such a good reminder of not only what Christ does for each of us but what we need to model for our own children.

Keisha Spivey [21:01]: That’s it, that’s it?

Pam Bailey [21:03]: The thing that I love about you is that I’ve been in your life enough to actually watch you mother, your teenagers, and then become adults. And this is not me airing out the Spivey laundry at all, but I really heard a story.

Keisha Spivey [21:19]: I air it out on a regular basis. They know it.

Pam Bailey [21:25]: But I remember one of your children came to you a few years ago and said, Hey, mom, here is a particular sin that I’m dealing with. And I want to approach my sin this way. And I need you and dad to help. And I watched you stand beside your child and guide them and make what is ultimately became a really great adult decision. And it has set that particular child into the blessings of God. I mean, I don’t know what else to call it, but that particular child acknowledged that things were not perfect in their life, asked you and Eric for help. And you all walked that path with them and I’m going to connect this. I also remember being at Eric’s birthday party one year and your son stood up and delivered. I cannot even do it. Justice. The things that he said about his father and how much, whenever he needed Eric in life to be a guiding light, Eric was always there.

And he never once said that you and Eric are perfect, that never came out of his mouth, but he knew that when he needed that soft place to land, mom and dad were there. You are not perfect. You’re right. But I have to watch your household from the outside, looking in and you have given me a lot to look up to and to mold into my own boys, as I’ve watched you and Eric do life with teenagers. Tell me in the times that were the toughest friend with your own kids, what kept you going?

Keisha Spivey [23:14]: I think for me and when I was pregnant, actually pregnant with Aaron, that’s my oldest son. I remember reading a book and it was talking about how being able to be a armom is literally God giving you a blank sheet of paper. Now on the backside is his plan, but you don’t get to see it. You have to hit the whole blueprint, it’s already planned out is already have a whole master plan form on the back, but he gives you this sheet of paper and he’s telling you to help write his course. And so for me, when it comes to our children, Eric and I, you know, we have made so many mistakes. So many things I think we’ve done well is we made our mistakes in front of our children when we messed up, we’re quick to apologize.

Look, here’s where I messed up. We’re quick to own it because we want them to learn, you’re not going to get always right. But I think what we did when I think about our teenagers and what kept me from killing them and because there are [inaudible 24:16]. I tell people at 13 or 14, your kids get abducted by aliens. And then you get visitation with them until they become adults. Because there are seasons where you’re like, I couldn’t have birthed that, there is no animal, that child was raised in my house. They know better than that. How dare they think that’s right? And you’re shaking your head. What the world am I going to do? But I think even in some of those harsh moments and I’m thinking of moments now for every child, I realized we written the process.

Keisha Spivey [24:47]: They’re on the Potter’s wheel, just like I’m on the Potter’s wheel. And just like, I am much older than they are. God is still working on me. He’s still shaping me. He’s still pulling off the parts of me that aren’t still aren’t like him. I’ve been walking with Jesus as Moses. And I still have things that I struggle with. I still have temptations that I should be passed by now. I still have moments where my attitude doesn’t necessarily smell like the father. And it doesn’t mean I’m not saved. It doesn’t mean I don’t love God. It doesn’t mean I don’t have a relationship. It means I’m human. And if all my years of walking with God, I still miss it and fall short and I have to depend on his grace then how dare, I think this 15-year-old or this 17-year-old, how dare, I think or expect them to operate with all the wisdom in the world.

And I can’t. So the more I thought about the grace that God extends to me and how he’s a good, good father and yes, he corrects and he disciplines, he does, but he does it with love. And for my children, I had to learn because I’m a disciplinarian by nature, people think I was in the military. Because that’s my speed. I’m a solutions driven person. But one of the things God told me is I couldn’t take that approach with my children because they did not need solutions. They needed to be pointed to the source.

And it’s so easy to want to fix your children. Especially those teenagers when you see them losing their minds when you see them acting in ways, contrary to what you know they know is true, were so quick to bring solutions, but God is saying, I need you to reach out to your arm and connect them to me. I’m the source connecting to the source and not the solution. And I remember one time and I have a child that just really tested me on every side, bless the Lord. And as I was praying about how to handle this, God told me I needed to back off. I needed to back off, just being on that child all the time, it’s just correcting, correcting, correcting. And I’m like, well, God, if I don’t correct them, what about this? If this happens, what about that? And I was just going through all of that. And God said to me, so clearly in their eyes, you represent me. And the more I became this dictating controlling don’t you do, God says, that’s how they going to see me.

And he says, and I was like, but God, I have to, he’s like, I need you to back off of them. They look at you as a woman of God, as a woman who teaches and preaches that you’re their mother. That’s the closest thing. They have to understand how much I loved them, you see dads love their babies. They do. But dads different, am married to an amazing man. He’s an amazing father. But one of the funniest stories my son shared was the one-time. Eric picked him up from school because he was sick and he gets to the house and Eric was like go lay down and Aaron was like, dad, aren’t you going to give me some medicine? He said what’s you need medicine. He said, aren’t you going to fix me this aren’t you going to? And he’s like, just go to bed until your mommy gets here.

And he started talking about how when I picked him up what we did differently. And so my husband is great man, great father, but he’s not a mom, he didn’t nurse them. He wasn’t their source of sustenance. I was, he wasn’t the one who woke up with them in the hour and quiet them and calm them when they were afraid. That’s what my role was. And I had to recognize that that role reflects what I’m teaching them about, who God is. If I distort that role and make it about control and power and manipulation. If I make that position about that through my example, then they wouldn’t be open to what God wants his position to be in their lives. And I would have been the one who stood in the way.

Pam Bailey [29:23]: Wow. And that might be one of the best things you’ve ever said about motherhood. Like we could write a whole book about that.

Keisha Spivey [29:30]: We can now here we go so Pam and Keisha isms would be something interesting but yes.

Pam Bailey [29:33]: Yes I would.

Keisha Spivey [29:33]: That is one of the things that I think God taught me, Pam that kept me in a place of humility and in respect of my role and the opportunity that he had given me. And I couldn’t blow it by trying to be the fixer.

Pam Bailey [29:56]: You know it’s really interesting. A lot of people don’t want to talk about roles because we think we’re supposed to be all things. But God did not create us that way. And while we have a lot of similarities, we as women were created very differently from men.

Keisha Spivey [30:16]: Absolutely.

Pam Bailey [30:16]: And you hit on something that I’m just having so much revelation right now, but you’re right. I have nursed four babies and I was their source of sustenance. And when you read scriptures about mothers and fathers, you so often find the scripture that talks about the dad disciplining. But here we are as a mom, my goal and my role is to point them to the source of life.

Keisha Spivey [30:45]: That’s it.

Pam Bailey [30:46]: And wow Keisha you are blowing my mind right now.

Keisha Spivey [30:50]: Praise the Lord.

Pam Bailey [30:50]: But I was given that opportunity with my babies and once they stopped nursing, and they begin to grow and eat real food, my source of life then becomes, let me show them Jesus, the bread of life.

Keisha Spivey [31:07]: That’s it.

Pam Bailey [31:09]: That is so good friend. Goodness, gracious.

Keisha Spivey [31:12]: They’re going to eat on that bread long after we’re gone. We have to do that.

Pam Bailey [31:20]: That’s so good. Keisha, if you could look back your youngest is just now in college. And so if you could look back on the teenage years from Aaron through Victoria, if there is one thing that you can pat yourself on the back for, what would that be sister?

Keisha Spivey [31:41]: The one thing that I know that I did well is my kids. Even with ministry and being a youth, pastor running organizations and kind of being a little bit all over the place, my kids never doubted that they were my priority. They knew behind God and Eric, they were next and everything else came after that. They were my first ministry. It wasn’t the church, it wasn’t the organization. It wasn’t all the folks that we had lived with us. And we take care of, it was they have always known if they needed their mama, everything else to steal, they have, so one of the things, and I have to be honest, I don’t know if that was done initially out of a planned event. I don’t think so. I think it was out of fear because I never felt like I was a priority as a child and I never wanted them to feel that, I never wanted them to question that.

And then you add ministry and you add everybody else’s children and all the other responsibilities. And that was the thing. When I talked to God, when he was calling me into full-time ministry, I’m like, Lord, please don’t ask me to my kids on the alter. I’m not interested in that. I’m not, that’s not part of the plan. And he says that I would never ask you to, he says, I need you to model what a woman in ministry looks like with their house in order.

Pam Bailey [33:11]: Yes.

Keisha Spivey [33:12]: That submitted and surrender to her husband that understands that home is her ministry and then flows everything else out of that. And so I made a whole lot of mistakes and done a lot wrong, but that’s one thing that I am so glad that I learned early because as they are moving into their own seasons and they’re moving out of our house and they’re moving into adulting, I love sitting around at the table.

Adult kids are so much more fun. I’m just saying, adult, is way more. And they have their own money. I’m just saying, so sitting around the table and them talking about our family time and family dinners and the things that we did together and hearing now because I knew then running around a crazy woman at every soccer game, every basketball, well, it was intense and it was demanding. But now I sit back and it’s those memories that they share with me on how they felt when they heard my voice in the stand, how they always knew their mama was there because my voice could carry over a whole gymnasium full of people and hearing them recount how much that meant to them. I didn’t know it at the time, but them knowing that they were a priority, I think was instrumental in forming their identity. They were a priority with their dad. They were a priority. I think that was instrumental when so many young people have self-worth and they don’t know who they are and they don’t know why they are because they don’t feel like they matter to people.

Pam Bailey [34:48]: Yes.

Keisha Spivey [34:48]: I think you talked to my kids, you can’t tell them that there’s anything they can’t do. You can’t tell them they are dreamers because they realized, wait a minute, I matter, I’m important. I’m significant. God has a purpose and a plan for me. And so I got stuff to do. So I think that came from them being a priority.

Pam Bailey [35:07]: Yes. I have to say this and it’s probably a little bit off-topic, but one of my favorite stories from your kids is at the beginning of motherhood, you had decided to stay home with the kids and Eric worked, but things were tight. Financially tight as I understood. But your oldest reported one day, I don’t even remember what event we were in. But he said you know what? I never knew that we struggled financially. I have legit thought that we lived rich lives and you were like, what? But there’s something to be said about that even as a kid, but that flowed into their teenage years, there was so much security in your home. And no matter what was plaguing you and Eric or the church or the world, your kids felt safe in their homes. And that contributes so much to our identity and to always feeling safe in Christ as well.

Keisha Spivey [36:10]: That I still laugh when they say that that is funny. Here I am making homemade Play-Doh, here I am rolling coins. And that was, but you know what? That goes back to Pam, us understanding that God’s grace is sufficient.

Pam Bailey [36:27]: Yes.

Keisha Spivey [36:27]: It fills in the gaps. I was thinking, they know they felt that they didn’t have this and they didn’t have that. They didn’t have the best of everything they had hand-me-down clothing, but they never knew.

Pam Bailey [36:41]: Brand. Thank you so much for joining me in this podcast. This is so rich and I mean I personally had my own revelation in the middle of you speaking. So this is just so rich and I knew there was going to be great, but this far exceeded my expectations. So friends, thank you for listening to me and my personal soul sister Keisha. Keisha where can we find you in the world? Social media, where can we find you?

Keisha Spivey [37:09]: You can find me. My website is

http://www.kbspivey.com. And you can find me on social media @IamKeishaBSpivey. And I also got to do a plug. Pam called me a superwoman. The first book I ever wrote was called, are you a superwoman or Superman? Because I’m here me clearly, some days you can dance between the two. So, but thank you so much for this opportunity Pam, I appreciate it.

Pam Bailey [Outro] [37:35]: Thank you, friends, and sisters. You know how this ends, you can follow me on social media @thepambailey. My website is thepambailey.com and as always, thank you for liking subscribing and sharing. I love you all. You are amazing cheerleaders in my life and I really do appreciate you. And until next time keep worshipping and finding joy in every moment.